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Ellen Belcher is the Dayton Daily News opinion pages editor. She writes about state government, education, the environment, higher education and all things Dayton.
Martin Gottlieb is an editorial writer and columnist for the Dayton Daily News opinion pages. He focuses on the political process itself and does such national issues as war, the economy, taxes and Social Security, as well as a hodge-podge of local and state issues.Home > Blogs > A Matter of Opinion > Archives > 2010 > March > 05 > Entry
Editorial: Ohio’s rebound depends on cities
In light of what you know about Ohio’s cities — their population losses, their troubled schools, their skyrocketing foreclosures — you might think they’re only a drag on the state.
Now comes a report saying Ohio has to tend to those places, and the concentrations of people in and around them, because they are the state’s future.
Researchers from the respected Brookings Institution and the Greater Ohio Policy Center have spent upward of three years taking stock of Ohio, drawn, in part, to the examination because Ohio has so many metropolitan areas.
The think tanks argue that in a global, information economy, metros are where the action will occur.
The reason? Those are the places that have roads, universities, cutting-edge hospitals, waterfronts, mature parks, museums and — most of all — the people.
“Today the seven largest metropolitan areas in the state house 70 percent of the state population and produce 80 percent of the state GDP,” researchers write in Restoring Prosperity: Transforming Ohio’s communities for the Next Economy.
If metropolitan regions are indeed assets, Ohio is looking good. It has more than any state except California, Texas and Florida.
Mixed in among the three dozen recommendations about what Ohio needs to do (and stop doing), the report also highlights assets you might not know about. For instance, given all the talk about the “brain drain,” it’s interesting that Ohio is in the top 10 among the states for awarding doctorates in science or engineering.
Of course, conferring the degrees is just half of the battle; ensuring that the grads actually take jobs and start businesses in the state is the other. But certainly having people who spend years doing graduate work here is an advantage.
In pursuit of improving schools, researchers say that school districts should be required to publicize their per-pupil ratio of spending on administration to classroom instruction.
Pointing to Montgomery County, the report says that the tiny Jefferson Twp. school district spends 68 cents on the dollar for administration, whereas Centerville spends just 13 cents.
The suggestion from the report that’s gotten the most media attention is that Ohio should reduce its number of school districts by a third.
Bruce Katz, of Brookings, said he thinks that idea is actually “modest,” that even 400 districts would be too many for Ohio. Mr. Katz argues that what citizens care most about is not who runs a school district, but the quality of schools their children attend. If reducing administrative overhead means more money can be spent in classrooms, he doesn’t think voters would object.
There are precedents in other states for districts to merge administrative functions, leaving individual schools, sports teams and even school boards intact.
For those who worry about consolidation being big government, Mr. Katz says that’s getting the recommendation all wrong. Consolidation translates to “leaner,” “more entrepreneurial,” “more market-oriented” government, he said.
School districts are not the only thing Ohio has in spades. It also has some 3,800 local government units, including 250 cities, 695 villages and 1,308 townships. The result is that “total local government payroll in Ohio is 10 percent above the national average and 17.5 percent above the peer state average,” according to Brookings.
None of this government is free, which leads to another finding: Ohio residents have the ninth-highest local tax burden in the country, compared with the 34th highest for state taxes. To know that fact is to understand that concentrating all the political fights about taxes in Columbus — as if state taxes alone define our competitiveness — is missing a big cost of doing business and living in Ohio.
Local government can be good government. But it’s also possible to have too much of a good thing.
Permalink | Comments (72) | Post your comment | Categories: City of Dayton, Economy, Editorials, Education, Ellen Belcher, Ohio government, Suburban Communities
Comments
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 5, 2010 6:27 PM | Link to this
This report references cities AND THE SURROUNDING AREAS as being critical. The key is to distinguish between the center city of Dayton proper and the surrounding areas. The burbs would probably be better off without Dayton, except for a few ballgames and musicals. ————————————DAYTON’S DYING————————-
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 5, 2010 6:35 PM | Link to this
This report references cities AND THE SURROUNDING AREAS as being critical. The key is to distinguish between the center city of Dayton proper and the surrounding areas. The burbs would probably be better off without Dayton, except for a few ballgames and musicals. ————————————DAYTON’S DYING————————-
By Mark
March 5, 2010 7:41 PM | Link to this
@it’s great in Dayton: First of all, I’d recommend changing your handle. Secondly, the report your’re referencing says that if the core dies, the region dies. Why? Regions are not identified by suburbs. They’re identified by the core City. Also, the problems of the inner city, if not dealt with, will eventually bleed into the suburbs. The result? People in those suburbs will eventually move into your bucolic, no-crime space. And guess what? Eventually, the crime will be at your door. If Dayton is dying, you’re a part of it!
By Mark
March 5, 2010 7:43 PM | Link to this
@it’s great in Dayton: First of all, I’d recommend changing your handle. Secondly, the report your’re referencing says that if the core dies, the region dies. Why? Regions are not identified by suburbs. They’re identified by the core City. Also, the problems of the inner city, if not dealt with, will eventually bleed into the suburbs. The result? People in those suburbs will eventually move into your bucolic, no-crime space. And guess what? Eventually, the crime will be at your door. If Dayton is dying, you’re a part of it!
By jimmie
March 5, 2010 7:50 PM | Link to this
Katz doesn’t know squat about school districts. Some of the lowest per pupil spending districts have the best test results. Throwing money at education will do nothing until you root out the teacher unions.
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 5, 2010 8:14 PM | Link to this
1) I like my “handle”——- 2) If this region is solely identified by Dayton proper, we’re all $crewed. A great many people already understand the huge distinction between SKANK-BUTT Dayton, and the burbs.——- 3) It’s pretty easy to keep poor people (that’s most of Dayton proper) out of areas that require an up-front investment to move in.——- 4) Dayton IS dying, and I’m not part of it.—— 5) Last, but not least….wait for it…..——-DAYTON’S DYING——-
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 5, 2010 8:20 PM | Link to this
Also, we could bulldoze Dayton proper, and I doubt it would have much effect on life in the burbs….like I said, ball games and musicals, that’s about it.
By A clear, bright line
March 5, 2010 8:44 PM | Link to this
Anything this region can do to draw a clear bright line between the relatively prosperous suburbs and the doomed City of Dayton is good.
By One last look
March 5, 2010 8:54 PM | Link to this
Whenever I park my car in Dayton, I always take one last look as I’m walking away. I always get the feeling it’ll be the last time I see it.
By 2 words 4 Mark
March 5, 2010 9:24 PM | Link to this
Mark - 2 words, buddy: GATED COMMUNITY
By B.H.O.
March 5, 2010 9:34 PM | Link to this
I know Ohio well, and I’m delighted to see all the doctorates in science and engineering degrees from Ohio universities! I have talked to Governor Strikland in how to help these individuals establish businesses in Ohio so that I can tax them. Yes We Can! We will tax these greedy businesses and give the money to the NEA and other unions supporting school propaganda! We will indoctrinate the tiny Jefferson school district with socialist and communist beliefs—they will sing songs in my honor and learn to praise me! Yes We Can! It’s quite clear—Ohio—well, Ohio just doesn’t depend on a “Centralized government” like the Brookings Institute suggests. I have a Plan! We will “centralize” gov’t, like the Brookings Institute suggests, and we will tell farmers when to plant, when to harvest, and we will “teach” kids what they really need to know! Did I mention they will sing songs in my honor and learn to praise me? Yes We Can! We will teach kids that “Bigger” is actually “leaner” we will teach kids it’s okay to “fudge” numbers when it comes to “Global Warming” we will teach kids to turn their parents in if they leave a light on in an unattended room—even if it’s a DDN editor that wastes energy—we will teach kids what we want kids to know. Yes We Can! Forget about the sentence that says “None of this government is free” Considering the DDN wrote that it had to be a typo! Yes! Of course, it’s free! We will tax those evil business people and get our money back! Yes We can! By the way, I’m glad the DDN never ever cites the Heritage Foundation…Whew, that would be bad…It actually might be reflective of their potential customer base and incite more people to buy the DDN and vote against me! I’m thankful for the propaganda of the DDN editorial Board! Yes We Can!
By B.H.O.
March 5, 2010 9:35 PM | Link to this
I know Ohio well, and I’m delighted to see all the doctorates in science and engineering degrees from Ohio universities! I have talked to Governor Strikland in how to help these individuals establish businesses in Ohio so that I can tax them. Yes We Can! We will tax these greedy businesses and give the money to the NEA and other unions supporting school propaganda! We will indoctrinate the tiny Jefferson school district with socialist and communist beliefs—they will sing songs in my honor and learn to praise me! Yes We Can! It’s quite clear—Ohio—well, Ohio just doesn’t depend on a “Centralized government” like the Brookings Institute suggests. I have a Plan! We will “centralize” gov’t, like the Brookings Institute suggests, and we will tell farmers when to plant, when to harvest, and we will “teach” kids what they really need to know! Did I mention they will sing songs in my honor and learn to praise me? Yes We Can! We will teach kids that “Bigger” is actually “leaner” we will teach kids it’s okay to “fudge” numbers when it comes to “Global Warming” we will teach kids to turn their parents in if they leave a light on in an unattended room—even if it’s a DDN editor that wastes energy—we will teach kids what we want kids to know. Yes We Can! Forget about the sentence that says “None of this government is free” Considering the DDN wrote that it had to be a typo! Yes! Of course, it’s free! We will tax those evil business people and get our money back! Yes We can! By the way, I’m glad the DDN never ever cites the Heritage Foundation…Whew, that would be bad…It actually might be reflective of their potential customer base and incite more people to buy the DDN and vote against me! I’m thankful for the propaganda of the DDN editorial Board! Yes We Can!
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 5, 2010 9:52 PM | Link to this
I don’t really know what you’re talking about, but it’s kind of entertaining.
By B.H.O
March 5, 2010 10:17 PM | Link to this
I’ve been having some issues with my teleprompter…work with me…
By B.H.O
March 5, 2010 10:19 PM | Link to this
I’ve been having some issues with my teleprompter…work with me…
By Mark
March 6, 2010 7:50 AM | Link to this
It’s Great in Dayton is a ranting lunatic that needs to get more often.
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 8:10 AM | Link to this
Mark- I simply think that The City of Dayton is a terrible place to live, work, or even visit. I choose to express that opiniom via the DDN comments blog. That hardly makes me a raving lunatic. Especially when one notices the large numbers of people that share my point of view. Oh, yeah: ——DAYTON’S DYING——
By Bill
March 6, 2010 8:45 AM | Link to this
Let me get this right. Ohio is going to depend on the leadership who has brought us the great enclaves like Dayton, Cinci, Cleveland, Youngstown, Toledo, Canton? These cities are hamstrung by rapid city employee unions etc… Ohio will never recover if we are depending on these monetary and social pits. The culture of dependancy is just too great to overcome.
By Mark
March 6, 2010 10:13 AM | Link to this
To It’s Great, etc. If you consider the various names under which you post to be the people that agree with you, yeah, you got me.
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 10:26 AM | Link to this
Mark, What?
By Oh Its Great!
March 6, 2010 10:33 AM | Link to this
Again no one knows where most suburbs are located, you have a better chance of them knowing where Dayton is. When it comes to arts/entertainment people want a city when we want a hayride or squash festival we go to the burbs. Sorry man but facts are facts, MSA’s (Metropolitan Statistical Areas) suffer when there is no core city serving as a stabilizing factor. I will say that the school systems tend to be better in the suburbs.
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 6, 2010 10:38 AM | Link to this
Facts are facts, huh? Let’s put it to the test….. bulldoze dayton and see what happens!
By Daedalus
March 6, 2010 10:42 AM | Link to this
Most Ohio republicans hate cities due to the cities having to deal with unions. Its a well known fact that republicans hate unions because without unions the cost of labor units might be substantially lower. Voinivich, Boehner all of them hate cities. The only exception to the rule might be Turner. Also I don’t want anyone to get distraught over It’s great in Dayton’s comments, he’s the typical person that provides thought on a blog to “stir the pot,” and he or she is entitled to their opinion. However suburbs would not be better without a core city its a proven fact. Except maybe in sparsely populated areas, won’t work in Ohio though due to it being top 10 in areas of dense population centers. Face it Ohio is going urban and there is not a thing anyone can do about it.
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 10:46 AM | Link to this
“Ohio is going urban”? Not in the Dayton area. The urban core is depopulating at a rapid clip, and for good reason. Oh, and I’m not a republican. I think the ‘burbs can get along fine without dayton, and asserting otherwise is far from a proven fact. A study or book is far from a proven fact.——-I say we do our own research right here, using a wrecking ball and dozers on Dayton. ——-DAYTON’S DYING———
By Oh its Great!
March 6, 2010 10:58 AM | Link to this
Ok you can challenge me intellectually if you want, but understand that without cities to attract real businesses the area suffers. Bulldoze Dayton if you want, then you’ll feel like you’re living in one of the Dakota’s but maybe that’s what you want.
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 6, 2010 11:07 AM | Link to this
I know of a great many prosperous areas that have no decaying urban core…Bloomington, IN and Santa Barbara, CA come to mind immediately. ——-And, thanks for giving me permission to bulldoze Dayton. I’ll be over with some papers for you to sign to authorize the demo job!!
By Mike R
March 6, 2010 11:18 AM | Link to this
Bulldozing Detroit seems to be working just fine. Detroit’s population is now the lowest it has been since Henry Ford established the assembly line in the city. As far as “republicans hating cities” it is Obama who has proposed bulldozing cities. It is well documented by many left-leaning news outlets he is considering bulldozing many parts of 50 cities. By the way, these 50 cities were identified by the BROOKINGS INSTITUtE!!
By Mike R
March 6, 2010 11:19 AM | Link to this
Bulldozing Detroit seems to be working just fine. Detroit’s population is now the lowest it has been since Henry Ford established the assembly line in the city. As far as “republicans hating cities” it is Obama who has proposed bulldozing cities. It is well documented by many left-leaning news outlets he is considering bulldozing many parts of 50 cities. By the way, these 50 cities were identified by the BROOKINGS INSTITUtE!!
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 11:26 AM | Link to this
I call first dibs on driving a dozer!! BTW - I’m not a democrat, either.
By Oh Its Great!
March 6, 2010 11:28 AM | Link to this
Detroit is still there and “right-sizing” to allow it to become more streamlined to contribute to the regional economy. If it didn’t then you would have a system of duplicated services like we do in theDayton area. Also have we resorted to comparing Dayton to Santa Barbara and Bloomington? Bloomington 1.5 hrs from Indianapolis (same MSA), Santa Barbara 1.5 from L.A. (same MSA). Here is a working definition on MSA’s just type in metropolitan statistical area according to wikipedia:”The U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB) defines a set of core based statistical areas (CBSAs) throughout the country. CBSAs are delineated on the basis of a central urban area or urban cluster—a contiguous area of relatively high population density. The counties containing the core urban area are known as the central counties of the CBSA. Additional surrounding counties (known as outlying counties) can be included in the CBSA if these counties have strong social and economic ties to the central counties as measured by commuting and employment. Outlying counties are included in the CBSA if the employment interchange measure (total of in commuting and out commuting) is 25% or more. Note that some areas within these outlying counties may actually be rural in nature. CBSAs are subdivided into metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs) and micropolitan statistical areas based on the population of the core urban area.” MSA’s are based on urban cores not farm country.
By Oh its Great!
March 6, 2010 11:34 AM | Link to this
I am Independent of any political party as I am an independent thinker. See we have found some common ground. : )
By I
March 6, 2010 11:36 AM | Link to this
I’d settle for being 1.5 hours away from SKANK-BUTT Dayton. I have spent substantial time in both of the cities mentioned, and neither is seriously linked (or wants to be) with the urban areas you mention.——-I’ll take nice, clean, low-crime, low pollution, low SKANK Ohio farmland over Dayton proper any day.————- Nice cut-and-paste job, though. Almost looks like serious research.—————One additional tidbit———-DAYTON’S DYING————
By Oh Its Great!
March 6, 2010 11:41 AM | Link to this
Maybe I have a better grasp on reality because I have lived in L.A., Atlanta, and the D.C. area. This is the most anti-city state that I have ever lived in. Also nobody wants to pay for services here and would rather duplicate services then set up SSO’s (shared services organizations). Just a thought, what an odd state.
By Oh its Great!
March 6, 2010 11:48 AM | Link to this
So let me get this straight you don’t believe that Bloomington depends on Indianapolis economically (there is IU with its 40,000 students) and Santa Barbara does not depend on L.A. with the film industry being in L.A. and lot of celebs choosing to live in Santa Barbara. Ok I’m sold, you got me!
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 11:53 AM | Link to this
The celebs move to SB to get AWAY from LA (many base their production companies in SB!) and IU and Indianapolis have little if anything to do with one-another. No, I’ve spent time in both places and they can both get along just fine (and do) with little or no link to the urban areas you mention.
By Mike R
March 6, 2010 12:10 PM | Link to this
Is that what you call Bulldozing…”Right-Sizing?” Hmmm. Okay. Well, now that Detroit has bulldozed, oops, “Right-Sized” the vast majority of it’s MSA and CMSA population live outside the core of its city. Dayton’s MSA as of the last census (2000) was 950,558—Dayton’s MSA includes Springfield. Between 1990 and 2000 Dayton’s (city)population shrank—primarily from inner city decay, and like Detroit the vast majority of it’s population lives in the suburbs—where growth has been and will be for the foreseeable future. So, it sounds like you made the point for “It’s Great in Dayton,” and the Miami Valley would get along just fine without a core city. Oh, hasn’t anybody ever told you not to rely on wikipedia? Sometimes their info isn’t accurate.
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 6, 2010 12:13 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the back-up, Mike! If you want to start using the work “Skank” in your postings to describe Dayton, feel free! I’d be honored.
By Joe Lacey
March 6, 2010 12:15 PM | Link to this
Interesting architecture and historic buildings are part of the “quality places” listed in the report as assets of the cities. They are referred to as a “driver of prosperity”. They bring to mind Julienne and how the state’s rules made it very difficult to use this wonderful building.
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 12:23 PM | Link to this
You can move that stuff out to the burbs, no problem! Brick-by-brick, if necessary.————-Dayton’s Dying————
By Davidss2
March 6, 2010 2:11 PM | Link to this
I never say I’m from the Dayton area. I always give the name of the suburban city in which I reside. As for Bloomington relying on Indianapolis?: gimme a break, ROFLMAO. I just tell people that Dayton is a dependent Urb of our city. As for cities having universities, that would be UD? Wright State is in Fairborn. Miami is in Oxford, hamilton, Middletown. Central State is in Wilburforce. Wittenburg is in Springfield, etc., etc., etc. That hospitals are moving to the suburbs. Even the DDN moved out of town; printing is in Warren County. The headquarters is in Oakwood, or as close as they could get.
By Oh Its Great...now "Mark"
March 6, 2010 2:20 PM | Link to this
I agree not everyone wants to live in the urban core but you still need one. Does Detroit need to be the size it was with GM downsizing? Also if you moved all that architecture to the suburbs wouldn’t urbanites move there increasing the population and making it…wellmore urban? No town, village or whatever is an island onto itself. Just ask Kettering with their public housing on shroyer rd and Centerville with its section 8 apartment complex. Guys I agree that the suburbs are great if that’s what you want, but you need an urban core otherwise things get out of whack. You bulldoze Dayton and you will have vagrants walking your street searching the essentials food, shelter, clothing etc.
By Oh Its Great...now and his team?
March 6, 2010 2:29 PM | Link to this
You take IU out of Bloomington ( I can’t believe I’m addressing this) and you lose 40,000 in population. Colleges are not good stabilizers because UD grads or IU grads don’t stay in the city they graduated from, they go to CITY WHERE THE JOBS ARE, DUH!!??? Chase Bank (SW Ohio) isn’t headquartered in Bellbrook its in Columbus (Worthington) to be exact who has a great working relationship with Columbus and Chase. Nationwide is in Columbus Proper, Fifth Third in Cincy, GE in Cincy…the list goes on and on. Very seldom do businesses locate in “bedroom” communities. Nope never gonna happen not in a million +1 years. Sorry people want the ballgames and musicals that you keep referring to, not staying at home with the kids all the time. Geez!
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 2:39 PM | Link to this
There will always be people that nobody in their right mind wants as a neighbor - criminals, druggies, prostitutes, etc. I can’t fix any of these social problems, but I can live and work as far away from them as possible. That’s what most sensible people do. I don’t think keeping these folks away from where I live and work is that difficult.
By It's Great in Dayton!!
March 6, 2010 3:29 PM | Link to this
to: Oh Its Great…now and his team? ——————-You’re making my point for me by failing to mention one employer choosing Dayton proper.——The places you mention are desirable places to live and work, but not Dayton.———DAYTON’S DYING—————-
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 6, 2010 4:01 PM | Link to this
I’d like to personally thank the entire population of the City of Dayton for giving the world Raleigh Trammell. Just when we all thought Dayton’s reputation couldn’t get any worse, this guy bursts onto the national scene by stealing from the organization formed by Dr. Martin Luther King. ———What’s next? Maybe a son or daughter of Dayton will beat up the Dalai Lama, or steal the Pope’s red shoes and big hat….? What a fu(king embarassment. Thanks, Dayton!!!
By Mike R
March 6, 2010 4:22 PM | Link to this
Who ever said this, “Very seldom do businesses locate in “bedroom” communities” is wrong. Just ask NCR…moved to Duluth, GA a bedroom community. New Page is in Miami Twp, not downtown where Mead was located. Motorola is in Schaumburg, IL not Chicago. I can go on and on and list major corporations that have their HQ’s in “bedroom” communities. Ever been to Bentonville, AR? There’s a major corp. there with tentacles that reach to all 4 corners of the world located in that sleepy little bedroom community.
By Jim from Dayton
March 6, 2010 6:29 PM | Link to this
Let’s just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the State of Ohio would declare the Dayton Public School System a failure and decides to fire all teachers and administrators, close the buildings and distribute the children to better-performing suburban schools. Actually, that’s not so far-fetched a scenario given recent federal legislation. Yes, Mr. and Mrs. Suburbanite, you had better begin to worry about Dayton, its schools, and social and economic problems. Dayton’s problems are your problems, too.
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 6, 2010 8:59 PM | Link to this
It would be the best thing to ever happen to those kids, and the suburban districts would do a better job for less money. Just like they do right now!
By Oh Its Great!
March 6, 2010 11:44 PM | Link to this
Mike R and Its great, I believe we agree on some points. But let’s be honest would Schaumburg, IL have Motorola without Chicago? Have you ever been to Georgia without Atlanta its like another country that’s why when it burnt down (Gen. Sherman…civil war) they rebuilt it because they needed a center for commerce for the state of Georgia. Because you need a center for everything like services (water), one little town that is successful due to having a good school system, some colleges, good roads and great housing is desirable I agree, hell that’s why I went to college and graduated, but small towns will not bring in $$$ for any state. Also NCR moved to Peachtree City not sure but is that metro Atlanta? Duluth, Gwinnett County, definitely metro Atlanta. I had the opportunity to hear a former delegate from Atlanta who was now in commerce speak in Dayton, if I remember correctly she stated she wished Atlanta had our water. Apparently people/businesses like water.
By Oh its Great!
March 6, 2010 11:51 PM | Link to this
This is my first time on DDN’s blog and its been pretty insightful Oh its Great and Mike R even though we don’t agree you guys are the first to not get totally disrespectful. However I will say this, regional problems exist and it does not matter what town you live in the center city has to thrive or we’re doomed. Thanks for a good debate.
By Left Dayton
March 6, 2010 11:55 PM | Link to this
I lived in Downtown Dayton for a while but moved to Chicago because of a job transfer. I find comments from It’s Great in Dayton totally funny - that guy obviously has never lived in a big city. Downtown Dayton is quite safe compared to Chicago, and while Chicago obviously has much more to offer as a bigger city, its problems are also much bigger than Dayton’s. I’m happy to have left Ohio though because I enjoy city living and sadly most of Ohio is quite anti-city. The people in your region have no clue what potential they have in the city of Dayton. They prefer bland soulless suburbs with crappy chain restaurants and boring people. Mr. “It’s Great in Dayton” is probably typical of the general attitude there, and that is why young professionals keep leaving Ohio in droves. They want exciting cities to live in, not boring suburbs.
By Paul H
March 7, 2010 8:33 AM | Link to this
As for closing down the Dayton schools and shipping the kids to the burbs, you would then be dealing with the kids of mostly single parents who place no value on education. After doing much volunteer time in the Dayton schools during the early ‘90’s I found that that is probably the biggest factor in the poor results of the Dayton schools. Without finding a way past parents that just don’t care or get it, educating these children is always going to be next to impossible.
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 7, 2010 9:10 AM | Link to this
To: Left Dayton - Yes, Dayton is quite safe compared to many large cities (I have, in fact, lived in a couple of very large cities). It’s just that Dayton, is…well, SKANKY. It’s run-down-at-the-heels, abandoned on the weekends, and a financial drain on the surrounding areas….. My car was broken into multiple times while living in Dayton, my home burgled 2x….. from my perspective, Dayton’s a dump.
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 7, 2010 9:31 AM | Link to this
To Paul H: The burbs are starting to get a significant number of low income kids, and more are coming each year. Also, a walk through the hallways will show a MUCH greater racial diversity that in previous years…..The difference is that suburban schools attract (for the most part) decent, professional teachers and admin types. Dayton Schools have driven away the best teachers/admin for decades. Very few teachers teach at DPS when a better offer arrives, although some dedicated few stay to try to help the kids…..The inclusion of low income kids into the burbs has begun, slowly but surely, and it’s going fairly well.
By Jim from Dayton
March 7, 2010 10:33 AM | Link to this
The single biggest disaster that happened to Dayton (and its schools) was the federal court order to “desegregate” the city schools by imposing cross-town busing. Unfortunately, the court order ONLY applied to the city’s schools and not suburban or county schools. Middle class white flight to rural and suburban areas followed like day follows night, the ciy schools (and neighborhoods) declined precipitously and so it continues. IF Dayton were to lose its school system (highly unlikely)and its children sent to suburban locales, this would complete the intent of the desegregation order of over thirty years ago. It would also, frankly, make the city a less objectionable place for middle class and professional people to live in and raise their families, and the urban center might just have a shot at renewing its tax base and once again thriving—for the benefit of the entire Miami Valley region
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 7, 2010 11:19 AM | Link to this
To : Jim from Dayton——-Nuking DPS is actually not as crazy as a lot of people think. If it were done gradually, so that outlying schools can smoothly absorb the increased head count…. it could work. ——-
By Oh Its Great!
March 7, 2010 6:32 PM | Link to this
Although suburban schools might do a better job with inner-city students, Jim has a point. 1) you are dealing with children who are pretty much being written off by the state, dps and their parents. 2) What suburban tax base do you know of that is going to be willing to absorb these children and pick up the slack. While its a noble gesture it will not happen, which brings me back to the point that the city needs to have better administration so that the region can have a strong urban core. Otherwise if you believe Dayton is a drag on your tax dollars now just wait to they start busing kids to your town and your school is burdened with “don’t give a care parents.”
By It's Great in Dayton!!!
March 7, 2010 7:50 PM | Link to this
Jim does have a point, and a good one. So does Oh Its Great. ————-I think we can all agree, though, that the status quo for DPS is an ongoing disaster. The burbs, though, are already absorbing some low income kids, and are counting on getting more. I’ve personally observed this on a daily basis, and it is more-or-less working…so far. As the numbers increase, the dollars must follow, but the suburban school personnel are simply LOTS better than the DPS personnel, with some exceptions.——Continuing to give money to DPS, with their horrible track record, is nuts.
By Mike R
March 7, 2010 7:54 PM | Link to this
Let me make a few points. First of all NCR HQ is in Duluth, GA though Peachtree City could also be defined as a “bedroom Community.” Savannah is a long ways away from Atlanta and is doing quite well…The “motive” of rebuilding Atlanta wasn’t derived so there could be a central city of commerce. Just like the Marshall Plan (and possibly the genus of the Marshall Plan) the rebuilding of Atlanta was to keep the other side from starting war—again…Employ people, give them a task to focus on, keep their attention diverted, let them see progress and feel good about themselves. That was the decision to rebuild Atlanta. Remember, 140 years ago we were very much an agrarian society and not city dwellers. I lived in Chicago for 6 years—working in the Loop—and felt MUCH more safe there than I do in downtown Dayton after hours. Motorola was founded in Schaumberg—It’s not dependent on Chicago anymore than Wal-Mart is dependent on Atlanta or Dallas. NCR is a perfect example. With today’s technologies (High Speed Internet, Fiber Optics, Satellite Feeds, Cell Phones, etc.) a firm doesn’t choose it’s “home” based on anything other than Tax Credits or other monetary incentives. Unfortunately that’s the name-of-the-game and it’s only going to get worse. And this new game will drive firms to the suburbs—not cities—as the cost of services (non-union) are much lower. As far as the person saying Dayton’s suburbs are soul-less with only chain restaurants he/she couldn’t have been more wrong—Or they never, ever, left their home. There are some wonderful places in the Miami Valley (Suburbs) to visit—whether it’s to eat, see, be entertained, or just relax.
By Mike R
March 7, 2010 7:54 PM | Link to this
Let me make a few points. First of all NCR HQ is in Duluth, GA though Peachtree City could also be defined as a “bedroom Community.” Savannah is a long ways away from Atlanta and is doing quite well…The “motive” of rebuilding Atlanta wasn’t derived so there could be a central city of commerce. Just like the Marshall Plan (and possibly the genus of the Marshall Plan) the rebuilding of Atlanta was to keep the other side from starting war—again…Employ people, give them a task to focus on, keep their attention diverted, let them see progress and feel good about themselves. That was the decision to rebuild Atlanta. Remember, 140 years ago we were very much an agrarian society and not city dwellers. I lived in Chicago for 6 years—working in the Loop—and felt MUCH more safe there than I do in downtown Dayton after hours. Motorola was founded in Schaumberg—It’s not dependent on Chicago anymore than Wal-Mart is dependent on Atlanta or Dallas. NCR is a perfect example. With today’s technologies (High Speed Internet, Fiber Optics, Satellite Feeds, Cell Phones, etc.) a firm doesn’t choose it’s “home” based on anything other than Tax Credits or other monetary incentives. Unfortunately that’s the name-of-the-game and it’s only going to get worse. And this new game will drive firms to the suburbs—not cities—as the cost of services (non-union) are much lower. As far as the person saying Dayton’s suburbs are soul-less with only chain restaurants he/she couldn’t have been more wrong—Or they never, ever, left their home. There are some wonderful places in the Miami Valley (Suburbs) to visit—whether it’s to eat, see, be entertained, or just relax.
By Washington Twp
March 8, 2010 5:57 AM | Link to this
“None of this government is free, which leads to another finding: Ohio residents have the ninth-highest local tax burden in the country, compared with the 34th highest for state taxes. To know that fact is to understand that concentrating all the political fights about taxes in Columbus…is missing a big cost of doing business and living in Ohio”————One of the best points in this op-ed. A point no one is addressing.
By David Esrati
March 8, 2010 11:00 AM | Link to this
It’s not only that we have too many bureaucrats on the public dime, we don’t have measurable goals and objectives. Ohio is a rudderless ship. Term limits didn’t solve any problems- we just play musical chairs. Yes- we can blame deseg or NAFTA- but the reality is we are a reflection of the country as a whole- just a bit ahead of the curve. As long as we keep thinking people don’t need good jobs paying good wages in this country- while paying the corporate leaders huge amounts (for sending jobs overseas) we’re screwed. City, Suburb- all of us. Wake up. It’s time to start paying attention and demanding accountability. We talk about the lack of accountability by our Country Administrator- www.esrati.com/the-real-costs-of-our-local-government/4477/ as an example of how we got where we are. We’ve been paying for the status quo for too long. It’s time to reinvent government structure in Ohio- at every level.
By Washington Township
March 8, 2010 7:21 PM | Link to this
One thing about that Brookings report, is that it will sit on the shelf and gather dust since the recommendations are not politically realistic. On saw the pushback against something as non-controversial as a 9-11 dispatch center. Probably the most realistic things are ad-hoc partnerships like the cooperation between various local governments around tha Austin Road development. Joint purchasing is perhaps another non-controversial way of improving efficiencies and reducing cost of services.
By Mike R
March 9, 2010 10:40 AM | Link to this
Can’t believe you didn’t use this example—Washington Twp merging with Centerville! I bet there would be some savings there…
By Mike R
March 9, 2010 10:40 AM | Link to this
Can’t believe you didn’t use this example—Washington Twp merging with Centerville! I bet there would be some savings there…
By Dan Kennedy
March 9, 2010 10:14 PM | Link to this
Ellen, Sometimes it annoys me when there are no comments on a story, but this much negativity by a couple of heavy posters destroys the vitality of the comments section. I can’t block out the most annoying posters with a filter. These posts must be moderated like the more reasoned mostmetro.com
By Washington Township
March 10, 2010 7:05 PM | Link to this
“Can’t believe you didn’t use this example—Washington Twp merging with Centerville! I bet there would be some savings there… “………that merger attempt is exactley the situation Brookings was talking about. Adding an additional layer of government and an additional layer of taxation for little apparent benefit or improvment in services. Washington Township citizens voting against this nonsense was the right thing to do, because how do you get the benefit of efficiency if there are no reduced costs leading to reduced taxes?
By Mike R
March 10, 2010 9:02 PM | Link to this
According to the Brookings Institute the merger of Washington Twp. and Centerville, would be a positive. Here’s what they told the DDN…”For those who worry about consolidation being big government, Mr. Katz says that’s getting the recommendation all wrong. Consolidation translates to “leaner,” “more entrepreneurial,” “more market-oriented” government.” They weren’t just talking about schools in this study—they’re talking about towns/cities/counties too. If it were a true merger then Centerville and Wash. Twp would have to eliminate ALL of the duplicate functions, and there’s no reason an “additional layer” of government or taxation would happen. In theory, after all the duplicate city and township employees (Clerks, trustees, police, Fire Fighters, etc.) are terminated you should have a “leaner” (their words—not mine) gov’t and they could lower your taxes. After a few years, once Centerville trims all of the fat from their Washington Twp merger, they can look to merge with Kettering—And become even “Leaner!”
By Mike R
March 10, 2010 9:02 PM | Link to this
According to the Brookings Institute the merger of Washington Twp. and Centerville, would be a positive. Here’s what they told the DDN…”For those who worry about consolidation being big government, Mr. Katz says that’s getting the recommendation all wrong. Consolidation translates to “leaner,” “more entrepreneurial,” “more market-oriented” government.” They weren’t just talking about schools in this study—they’re talking about towns/cities/counties too. If it were a true merger then Centerville and Wash. Twp would have to eliminate ALL of the duplicate functions, and there’s no reason an “additional layer” of government or taxation would happen. In theory, after all the duplicate city and township employees (Clerks, trustees, police, Fire Fighters, etc.) are terminated you should have a “leaner” (their words—not mine) gov’t and they could lower your taxes. After a few years, once Centerville trims all of the fat from their Washington Twp merger, they can look to merge with Kettering—And become even “Leaner!”
By DAYTON EVACUATION COMMAND CENTER
March 12, 2010 8:52 AM | Link to this
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Due to the rapid collapse of the City of Dayton, an immediate evacuation of the city has been ordered. For your safety and that of your family, please proceed out of Dayton as quickly as possible, by any means possible. Aid station have been set up on major roads for Dayton refugees. Medical help will be available for those with gunshot wounds, lice/crab/bedbug infestations, or individuals requiring detox.
By IT'S GREAT IN DAYTON!!
March 14, 2010 10:00 PM | Link to this
This scenario, from DDN (pasted below) is illustrative of how far Dayton proper has descended. A dead body lies for several days in the yard of an abandoned house until it is discovered by schoolchildren. This is the type of thing that happens in THIRD WORLD NATIONS.—————DAYTON — Homicide detectives were summoned to the rear of an abandoned Warder Street house on Sunday, March 14, after five young boys playing nearby spotted a woman’s body in the back yard. Investigators believe the woman, who had no identification, was dead a few days before being found behind 58 Warder St. shortly before 3 p.m. The boys spotted her lying face up in the back yard below a rusted metal fire escape and near a rundown garage. She had been bleeding from the left eye and her pants were partially undone, neighborhood residents said. The house has been abandoned for at least eight years, said Victoria McNeal, president of the Riversdale Neighborhood Association. Its front porch is crumbling, its windows broken and its interior is gutted. Three houses next to it also are dipilated and boarded up. One bears the scars of a recent fire. The boys who made the discovery — ages 6 to 9 — were running behind one of the adjacent abandoned houses when they spotted the body McNeal said keeping drug users, children and vagrants away from the abandoned properties is a constant struggle. “It’s horrible, people get in there and do whatever,” she said, adding that there are at least 200 abandoned properties in the area. She said it was tragic that the boys made the discovery. “They are just babies. They don’t need to see something like this,” she said.
By IT'S GREAT IN DAYTON!!!
March 16, 2010 10:56 PM | Link to this
The center city of Dayton has reached the point of no return. The downward spiral can no longer be reversed. The suburbs should do what they can to stay disconnected from Dayton, and stand clear as it hits bottom. Once things truly bottom out for Dayton, MAYBE a salvage effort can begin.