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Dayton Daily News education reporter Scott Elliott writes about schools, kids, teaching and learning.
Home > Blogs > Get on the Bus > Archives > 2008 > May > 13 > Entry
Engineering jobs, math and the future
I’m in Kansas City today for a seminar on math education put on by the Hechinger Institute for Education and the media where we’ve been talking a lot about the crisis of science and math education in the U.S.
Specifically, American technology companies are screaming about the need for qualified, home grown engineers and complaining that they have no choice but to hire Chinese, Indian and other foreign-born engineers because they are so much easier to find than American engineering school graduates.
As a result, Ohio is among several states that have made a big move for more math and science instruction. By 2014, Ohio will require graduates to take three lab sciences and pass Algebra II to receive a high school diploma.
This push for more math and science raises several questions. Among them:
—Will there be good paying jobs for engineering graduates in the future?
—Do all students need challenging, high level math courses like Algebra II?
—How will a big state like Ohio ramp up instruction so there will be enough quality courses (and teachers) for every student?
Let’s start with this question of jobs. CEOs of big companies say they need engineers now and that the are forced to hire foreign workers because there aren’t enough Americans going into the field.
But one of my reporting colleagues pointed out some dangerous math for young Americans who go into engineering in the future. And the bottom line is this — is there any reason to expect American companies to stop hiring Indian and Chinese engineers? Those foreign workers are very good and much cheaper than American engineering grads.
So given the competitive pressure, aren’t engineering wages likely to go down over time if companies can find skilled but far cheaper talent elsewhere? Will American engineers enjoy the same pay and lifestyle benefits in 20 years that they enjoy today?
A good counter argument is all kids can benefit from better training in math and science and that a degree in engineering will impart skills that will be useful in many types of jobs, even if engineering jobs are less desirable in the future. But that is a different message to tell a youngster than to promise a good, well paying job in his or her chosen field.
By comparison, consider the last big boom in engineering, math and science in the U.S. In the wake of Sputnik, the U.S. began spending millions on space engineering. The space program inspired many young people to study math and science. But it was both exciting to dream of working in the space program and the kids KNEW there would be good jobs when they came out of school.
Still, it is hard be opposed to a plan that would teach kids more and better math skills. Which brings us to Algebra II.
Here’s what I’ve heard from some math teachers about this idea. They say that Algebra II is very challenging and, for many kids, out of their league. But that’s OK. Some kids, they say, do not need to know math at the Alegbra II level. Competency at Alegbra I is plenty for most careers.
And there is a downside to requiring everyone to take Algebra II. First, we already have a shortage of good math teachers. Where will we get enough high quality teachers to add all this extra high level math instruction and to make it good? And what will those schools do with kids who simply cannot handle the math in Algebra II but need to pass to graduate?
Some math teachers fear the result will be to water down Algebra II instruction to make it easier to pass. So classes that are listed as “Algebra II” will actually be taught more at the level of Algebra I.
This is an interesting and complicated problem. Proponents of Algebra II point to studies that show students who take it in high school have the highest rate of college completion of any college-bound student. The bottom line is students who take Algebra II are very likely to go on and graduate from college.
But to me, that is a chicken-and-egg example. How many kids would take a challenging class like Algebra II in high school who were not already highly motivated and high achieving students? Are they graduating college at a high rate because of something they learned in Algebra II, or are they taking Algebra II because they already are motivated high achievers who are going to graduate from college no matter what?
What’s your take on this? Should everyone take Algebra II? Would you encourage your son or daughter to go into engineering right now? I’d especially like to hear from any math teachers or professional engineers out there.
(Image credit: Picture Ninja)
Permalink | Comments (13) | Post your comment | Categories: Teaching and Learning
Comments
By Preble Promise
May 15, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Mary, when I say that every student should be challenged, I meant every student should be challenged. For you, four years of high school mathematics may start at Algebra II and continue to Numerical Analysis. You may not be able to receive your classes in a traditional high school setting, but on a college campus receiving PSEO credit. I agree, schools need to do a better job at ability grouping, and every child (gifted and non-gifted, athlete and scholar) should have the same opportunity for challenge. My point was that there are plenty of post-secondary options out there, and we should not be so arrogant to slot students into “college bound” or not without their approval.By Mary
May 15, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Preble Promise, take my word for it, many students are underchallenged from kingergarten on. Because of this, many gifted kids become chronic underachievers and high school drop outs. However, part of the problem is the education system does not know how to deal with students of varying abilities in the classroom, but really get into differing abilites in sports. Rather than try to understand the individual student and challenge them appropriately, many students are in limbo whose natural abilities far exceed the rest of the class. Grouping students by ages is about the only sorting schools do for the classroom. Four years of math or English is not a measure of challenge. I swear I diagramed the same sentences for four years in high school. Math was too easy. I had skipped first grade after two weeks because it was too easy. Many students need to be more challenged, but some are overwhelmed. I would be overwhelmed if I was expected to play golf like Annika Sorrenstam, tennis like Venus Williams and basketball like Lebron James in order to get a diploma.By Preble Promise
May 15, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
I think the biggest problem is that we have decided that there is a “college-prep” curriculum, and then a curriculum that everyone else takes. Should we believe that only those who plan on getting a four-year degree should be challenged? In high school, every student should take four years of challenging mathematics (along with English, history/government, science, etc.) Without this challenge, how does a student find out what their gifts are? I’m not saying that Algebra II should be mandated, only four years of math. And at the very least, we should attempt to challenge every student on this “college-prep” level and let that student — not you or me — make the decision of where they go for post-secondary education (4-year, 2-year, trade school, apprenticeship, workforce, etc.)By Tom B
May 14, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
Last week I attended my son’s college engineering graduation. As a long term engineering manager, I am well aware of the trend, but even I was stunned by the sheer number of his fellow graduates from China and India. I feel sure they were the majority. As for math in high schools, algebra is NOT just for college bound students. I am involved with an area high school career center. The majority of jobs our students enter require an awareness of math concepts, including algebra. Carpentry, machine trades, graphics, and many other non-college career fields call for math skills. These jobs are no longer just about pounding nails or running a Bridgeport roundtop mill. Algebra is a process that if mastered, teaches one to think differently. This helps for life, even if one does not actually use algebraic tools daily.By Mary
May 14, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this
joe mamma, it makes even less sense to steer all students toward college or to classes much above their current abilities than it does to steer them to a particular career field. The students themselves and their families should have choices, not be force fed a college prep curriculum because of some educator’s dogma. We also need highly trained technicians and service workers who would benefit from a different curriculum. WHy frustrate studnets with something they do not need or want to learn. There are plenty of other skills that need to be learned that are more relevant to their furture careers.By lou
May 14, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
It should be required to pass either algebra II or a consumer math class. Not everyone goes to college, not everyone needs to go to college, not everyone is college material. That does not mean everyone can’t be successful. College and harder classes is not going to make you succeed. Finding your niche makes you successful.By joe mamma
May 14, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
I took an informal survey of my office. 100% of us took Algebra II in high school. None of us are engineers. The US economy and job market are too complicated and dynamic for our politicians and educators to try and predict what job will be hot in 20 years. How about we just worry about providing kids with a quality education so that they are equipped to think and problem solve instead of steering them toward particular career fields?By JT
May 14, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
To null: Maybe I missed something in Scott’s post but I did not find DPS mentioned once in it. GOTB is not just about DPS but also about education in general. DPS is a big target of the public school critics, and rightly so, but I am not sure how the “union” and DPS are an issue here. Students should not be required to take Algebra II because most cannot pass it if they are not capable. As a student in high school in the early eighties, I struggled with math, especially Algebra II. I was not mature enough to focus and work hard in order to succeed. Students who can need to be in classes of like-minded students, not burdened with those that are forced to be there. The curriculum as a whole has been watered down over the last 4 or 5 decades because parents insist that their children pass everything. Society has lower standards and education is a reflection of that erosion of standards. We are more interested in promoting high self-esteem than knowledge. Schools focus on self-esteem too much and set up too many to fail. Nobody wants to tell children the truth (that you cannot always get what you want; it takes hard work and time). In my life, I have learned a lot more from failing than from succeeding. High self-esteem is not all that it is cracked up to be, the population with the highest self-esteem are the residents of our nation�s prisons.By Dave
May 14, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
Mary, I can’t believe “Ivory Tower Blues” could possibly say it any better than you did. My first engineering degree is from ‘76 and I agree with you right down the line.By null
May 14, 2008 7:45 AM | Link to this
Get a grip, Scott. You’re talking about Dayton Public Schools, you know, the one where the teachers union is only interrested in milking as much money out of the taxpayors as they can, the one where the school board is irresponsible and not concerned about education children, the one where most people who’s children go to DPS really don’t give a hoot about the education their children receive. So, to ask a question like “do you think students should have to be required to take Algebra II”, is a pretty goofy question. You need to “get on the bus” and get with what’s really going on in DPS.By Mary
May 14, 2008 7:32 AM | Link to this
As an aerospace engineer who got my degree in 1970, I have observed a lot of fad “problems and solutions” regarding math and science education. When I graduated, aerospace engineers were being laid off all across the country and the Viet Nam War was raging. Too bad we were not harnessed to work on alternative energy sources including wind, solar, geothermal, and hybrid cars. I think our country and the world would be better off now. Education should be top quality, but that does not mean everyone should have to take Algebra 2, calculus and applied differential equations. The education concept that more and more should go to college is bogus. It floods people into credentials they are not really qualified for and floods the market with cheap labor. The book “Ivory Tower Blues” does a better job of explaining this. I have heard some say they is even an overage of engineers. We need high quality engineers, and a large economic and government system that knows what to do with them. Schools have failed our engineering talent with their resistance to tracking students, to providing grade and class acceleration and gifted education. Our schools do a much better job of providing opportunities for gifted athletes. Jay Mathews of the Washington Post recently reported an example. A gifted student who wanted to major in chemical engineering could not even get accepted at Virginia Tech. But as I recall, former pro football player Michael Vick now serving time for dog fighting had a full scholarship there.By mskiles314
May 13, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this
When I graduated high school in 1994, studies showed that students that took Algebra I tended to go to college. Then Algebra I became a requirement, and what happened to the trend? It seems to have eroded. Politicians have a hard time with cause and effect. Good students go to college and good students tend to take challenging courses. It’s not something you can force; the intelligence bell curve still exists. What will you get when 100% of the kids take a course the top 25% used to take? More frustration and apathy from students. Algebra II is no place for people that do not want to take the course. InBy Laura
May 13, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
I do not think all students need nor are they all capable of passing Algebra II. I agree with some who say that A. we don’t have enough qualified Math teachers available and B. when schools are put in the position of passing everyone regardless of their ability they will have no choice but to “tweak” the curriculum so that the vast majority can pass. I agree with the comment that students who take more challenging courses do so because they are already motivated and fully intend to go on to college. I see the real results of this requirement as causing students to drop out if they realize they can’t pass the class. I just don’t understand why some people think everyone is capable or interested in going to college. If we are going to force all students to take college-prep courses, then we need to make sure that all of those students have the financial means to go on to college. And we all know that isn’t going to happen.